Possibly is "A. J. LAKE" age 20, in 1880 census of Buena Vista, Chaffee Co., Colorado. Microfilm Series: T9 Roll: 89 Page: 19A; he was born in Illinois.

His middle initial “W” does not stand for any name. [2266]

Although the story was that Joseph walked out on Rose (nee KNOST) and went to Denison, Texas, no evidence of his presence in Texas has been found but he later turned up in Denver, Colorado, and eventually moved to Los Angles, by way of Oakland, California. [2326] On the other hand, there were some people named LYALL in Denison, Texas, in the 1880s & 1890s, so he may have gone there to visit relatives.
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The Complicated Life of Joseph W. Lyall

Except for some unusual discrepancies in dates, all the records supporting this story seem to refer to the same person. And they show that he moved around quite a bit. He lived in an era when his telegraphy skills enabled to to obtain employment nearly every place he lived.

The one consistent statement about Joseph W. Lyall in all the records which mention his place of birth and that of his parents, is that he was born in Canada, his father was born in Scotland and his mother in Ireland. The least consistent fact is Joseph’s date of birth. His date of arrival in the United States is also rather variable.

The Canadian census records from 1871 to 1891 show that the only province in which the Lyall family name is found is Ontario. And in the 1871 census, there is a family headed by John Lyall, age 62, who was born in Scotland, and his wife, Jane, age 40, born in Ireland. The youngest boy in the family is Joseph Lyall, age 6, therefore born circa 1865. No Joseph Lyall of similar birth and circumstances is found in the 1881 or 1891 censuses of Canada. According to his naturalization certificate, Joseph arrived in the United States circa 1884, and thus at about age 19.

The next time his name turns up is in the 1888 city directory for the city of St. Joseph, Missouri. He was living at 222 N. 6th Street, and was employed as an operator for Western Union Telegraph Co. Then the 1889 directory for St. Louis, Missouri, contains an entry for a John W. Lyall at 840 S. 8th Street, who was a clerk for the St. Louis Iron Mountain & Southern Railway Co. This is either a coincidence or a typographical error. On the other hand, Joseph did have an older brother named John, so I guess there’s an outside chance they both moved to Missouri.

According to a deposition dated June 23, 1928, it was in the fall of 1888 that Joseph first met Rose Belle Knost, originally from Clay County, Illinois. It was stated that he was about 22 at the time and was a telegraph operator. So this is completely consistent with the Joseph born in Ontario and the Joseph in the 1888 directory of St. Joseph. So this implies Joseph moved from St. Joseph to St. Louis earlier in 1888. Rose and Joseph socialized for several months and then reportedly he lost his job in May of 1889 (see the March 28, 1930, pension appeal documents), at which point he departed to Texas. Rose claimed he wrote to her once from there. She believed it was Dennison [sic], Texas (“Denison” is the currently accepted spelling). So far, this is the only evidence that Joseph was ever in Texas. In Joseph’s absence, Rose gave birth to Horace J. Lyall, later known as Joseph H. Lyall (Note, however, that Joseph W. Lyall & Rose Knost were never legally married, in spite of what the U.S. Pension Office claimed).

Interestingly, there were some Lyall folks in Denison, Texas, in the 1880s & 1890s. The 1887 city directory for Denison lists a James R. Lyall, employed by and residing with William C. Lyall, an agent for Pacific Express Co. James was an express messenger for that company. And a George W. Lyall was a cashier for that same company. As of 1891, only George and William were still in Denison. About 1893 William C. Lyall moved to Dallas, TX, but was still working for Pacific Express Co., though he is the only Lyall in Dallas then. He was in Dallas at least through 1897. He is missing from the 1898 Dallas directory, so that may be a clue to when he died (that will make more sense in a moment). The next available census, 1900, shows a James R. Lyall, born 1863 in Canada, living in Texarkana, Miller Co., Arkansas, single, but living with his sister-in-law Marion [sic] Lyall (widow) and her children who were all born in Texas 1884-1897, one of whom is named William C. Lyall, born 1886. He appears in the 1914 city directory of Texarkana, AR, as a manager of a pool hall, and his mother, Marian Lyall is listed as the widow of “Wm C.” I found the death certificate for the younger William, who died in 1917 in El Paso, Texas (age given only as “about 30”; no birth date given). It shows his father’s name was W. C. Lyall, born in Canada, and his mother was Marian also born in Canada. It also confirms that William Jr. had previously lived in Texarkana, AR. So William Sr. of Denison & Dallas, died sometime between 1898 and 1900 (the Texas death certificates don’t seem to be available that far back). James reported both of his parents as born in Scotland and that he and his sister-in-law immigrated from Canada in 1884. A James R. Lyall is also in Texarkana in 1930, but strangely lists his birthplace as New York, but his age is approximately correct and his parents were from Scotland and England. And later, a James R. Lyall died in Abilene, TX, in 1940, with the death certificate saying he was born in New York in 1865, but gave no details about his parents (see also Find A Grave Memorial# 59626204). I could not find James in 1910 or 1920. The closest match I found in the 1871 Canada census was a James Lyall, born circa 1865, with a father (John) born in Scotland and mother (Elizabeth) born in England. That James had older brothers named George and William, so it sounds promising. In the 1881 census that same James appears at age 17, but the older brothers were no longer in the household. However, in a different town in the same district that year was another 17 year old James Lyall, whose father was apparently deceased but his mother (Jane) was reported as born in Scotland. But it turns out, that James died in an industrial accident the following year. Also, that Lyall family was not found in the 1871 census and there was no George or William in that family. It should be noted that Joseph also had an older brother William but no brother James or George. When I backed up to 1861 in the same part of Ontario, I discovered Joseph’s family, before he was born, at which time his brother’s name was recorded as “Wm. C. Lyall.” Again still no George in that family but now there are two William C’s in Ontario. One other consideration is a William C. Lyall, b. 1857 in Ontario who is in British Columbia in 1901, so can’t be the William who moved to Texas. It’s a lot of speculation, but if Joseph W. Lyall really did go to Denison, TX, it certainly looks like there were some relatives there already. But he didn’t stay long enough to leave a paper trail.

Returning to the original timeline. Again referring to Joseph's naturalization certificate, he stated he had resided in Colorado for three years prior to naturalization, implying arrival in that state in 1889, which is consistent with his departure from Missouri. And it also further supports the idea that his time in Texas was very short. In 1892, J. W. Lyall checked in at The Gilsey hotel in Denver, Arapahoe Co., Colorado. The Denver directory for that year does not list an occupation, but in the 1893 directory, Joseph W. Lyall is living at 2212 California Street, Denver, and is an operator for Western Union Telegraph Co. On Aug. 31, 1892, Joseph married the widow, Mrs. Rose Lake (nee Daniels). Soon after, on Sep. 20, 1892, Joseph became a naturalized citizen, demonstrating that he was not born in the United States.

By Oct. 9, 1894, Joseph had moved to Oakland, California, and on that date registered to vote. It is not known if his wife was with him at the time. He was employed as a Telephone or Telegraph Operator (the source just says “Tel.”). He continued to appear in the Oakland voter registration books through at least Feb. 1, 1897 (at that time he was a Telegrapher).

Mrs. Lyall’s parents, Jacob and Mary Daniels, moved from Denver, to Los Angeles, CA, in 1896, along with her brother, Schuyler. Their first home there was at 1025 Temple St. This was the last time the records listed their name as “Daniels” as later it was only “Daniel.” By 1897, Jacob and Schuyler Daniel went into business as “Daniel & Son” (the nature of this business is unknown). In 1898, the family moved down the street to 1027 Temple.

Sometime in 1899 Joseph also moved to Los Angeles, CA (there was a “Jos. A. Lyall” listed in the 1899 Oakland directory, which is probably a typo for “Jos. W” because that person was also an Operator for “S P Co.,” so that must have been the last edition of the Oakland directory to list him. In Los Angeles, his first home was at 1201 Adams Street, but the June 1900 census shows that he and Rose had moved in with her parents at 1027 Temple Street. This household also included Rose’s daughter, Imogene Lake, from her first marriage. Joseph is reported as a Telegraph Operator and gives his date of birth as Sept. 1866, in Canada. His father was born in Scotland and his mother in Ireland.

Joseph continued to reside at 1027 Temple St. through at least 1904. Imogene, at least according to the city directories, was known as Imogene L. Lyall, and was also in that same house through 1904. In June of 1904, Joseph purchased Lot 77, the Victor Heights tract, from Daniel W. Thomas and Martha E. Thomas (I have no idea where that lot is located in Los Angeles).

Next we have the 1907 Los Angeles directory, which shows both Joseph W. Lyall and Imogene L. Lyall at 912 Hinton Av., through 1908, which is about the time that Imogene married Joseph T. Saunders Jr. The first census showing that couple together is the 1910, which places them at 2181 West 30th Street, Los Angeles. That marriage broke up in the 1930s. Joseph W. Lyall remained at 912 Hinton Av. through at least 1913.

At this point it looks like Joseph & Rose divorced, because on July 7, 1913, in St. Louis County, Missouri, Joseph applied for a marriage license to marry Alberta Rupp, who was born in Missouri, but her mother was German. Based on Alberta’s age, he could not possibly have known her when he had lived in St. Louis, so how did this happen? It turns out that Alberta was already in Los Angeles as of April 30, 1910 (census). They must have met there, though why they had to go back to Missouri to get married is unclear. I found no evidence of her parents living there in 1913. By 1915, Joseph is back in Los Angeles, at 916 W. 10th Street, but Mrs. Rose I. Lyall is still living at 912 Hinton Avenue. The Los Angeles 1916 Voter Registration in Precinct No. 317 shows both Joseph & Alberta at 834 Golden Ave.

Joseph registered for the WWI Draft, on Sep. 12, 1918, but reported that he was still at 916 W. 10th Street. By 1920 he moved to 1317-1/2 Arapahoe Street. The census that year shows him living with his new wife, Alberta (mistakenly recorded as “Elberta”) at what appears to be that same address (the enumerator indicated the “1/2” part of the house number by adding a small superscript “2” to the “1317” - an easy detail to miss). In the mean time, his ex-wife, Rose Lyall was living at 912 N Beaudry Ave, Los Angeles, CA, and apparently relying on a lodger for income. It is confusing of course that now both of his prior female companions go by the name of Rose Lyall.

(Just for fun, look up her address in Google Maps: 912 N Beaudry Ave, Los Angeles, CA, and pull up the street view to see her house; it really looks like it could be the same house from 1920!)

Joseph and Alberta moved to Oakland, CA, at least by the time of the 1930 census and her mother. Wilhelmina Rupp, was living with them as well. Joseph seems to have retired by this time, as from here on, there is never an occupation listed for him. They moved around a lot in Oakland, with the last known address in 1939 being 1511 Jackson Street. I have not found either of them in the 1940 census anywhere. In a previous communication I said that I thought Joseph died sometime before 1917, but clearly I was mistaken (not to mention that I figured out my original logic was faulty). Now it appears he may have died around 1939-40. No death records for Joseph or Alberta have yet been found. They do not appear in the 1940 Oakland city directory; in fact they do not appear in any of Ancestry’s city directories after 1939. Given their age difference, one would expect Alberta to have still been around somewhere after he died. But maybe they just moved again.

There are some problems with all these records however. When Joseph went back to Missouri to marry Alberta Rupp, he gave his age as 39, thus placing his birth circa 1874, eight years off the 1866 given by the 1900 census and his 1894 voter registration. Then when he registered for the draft in 1918, he gave his exact birth date as Sep. 29, 1877. However, the Draft Card also says he is a Telegraph Instructor for the Sante Fe Railroad in Los Angeles, and confirms he is married to Alberta. His first known association with the Santa Fe Railroad was in 1901, employed as a “tel opr.” By 1913 he was a Superintendent of their Telegraph School, and from 1915-1920 was an instructor for the school.

The only thing consistent regarding his date of birth is the month of September. Alberta stated her age as 26 on the marriage license application, which corresponds to 1887, which is close to the 1888 derived from the 1920 census. In that same census, Joseph is 46 and therefore born in 1874 (consistent only with the marriage license application). But it still shows him to be Canadian by birth. It does however state that he immigrated from Canada in 1893 and became a naturalized citizen in 1898 (in the 1930 census, the year of immigration changed again to 1890). But then how could he have been a Telegraph Operator in St. Joseph, MO, in 1888 and subsequently meet Rose Knost in St. Louis, in the fall of that year? That immigration & naturalization data is also in conflict with the Oakland voter registration books which consistently said he had been naturalized on Sep. 20, 1892, in Arapahoe Co., CO. That date is confirmed by the naturalization record on file at the Colorado State Archives.

In 1900 Joseph had reported that his father was born in Scotland and his mother in Ireland and that also agrees in 1920 (but Ancestry reversed the countries in their index! - I submitted a correction). And also it says he’s an Instructor at a Telegraph School, so it’s got to be him!

Then in 1930, he and his wife, Alberta, are in Alameda, Oakland Co., CA, but he’s only 55 (b.1875). If nothing else, he seems to have been consistent in reporting his age from the time he married Alberta, but not consistent with earlier records. Maybe he wanted her to believe he was younger that he really was. But in that case he fooled the Draft as well.

If there were two Joseph W. Lyall’s from Canada, with such similarities, it would be pretty incredible.

Regarding those voter registration records that where created while Joseph was in Oakland, CA, in the 1890s. Both Familysearch & Ancestry have indexes, but only Ancestry has the images of the original register books. The Ancestry database is called “California, Voter Registers, 1866-1898” and the title on the register itself is “Great Register.”

The register for 1894 gives his age as 28, height 5’9”, blue eyes, brown hair. By comparison, his WWI Draft Card said blue eyes, dark hair, medium height, so it certainly sounds like the same man. The register also says he was born in Canada and works as a Telephone Operator. The date of registration was Oct. 9, 1894, which implies he was born in 1866. At the 1896 voter registration, he had moved to a different street address in Oakland and shrunk by 1/2 inch.

Given that his naturalization took place in Arapahoe Co., CO, it is weird that he ended up living on Arapahoe Street in Los Angeles in 1920!

I suppose it’s important to point out that we have no official documents from Joseph’s first time in Missouri, that identify his date or place of birth. In the event there really were two Joseph W. Lyalls, we have no idea where the Joseph W. Lyall who Rose Knost met in Missouri, is from. But if he did leave her to visit relatives in Denison, TX, then it would be pretty certain he was from Canada.

Revised: June 2, 2014 – Bruce W. Christopher

1888 directory, St. Joseph, MO: Joseph W., Opr W. U. Telegraph Co., rms 222 N. 6th Street (page 303) [3691]
1889 directory, St. Louis, MO: John W. Lyall, clk St. L. I. M. & S. Ry. (St. Louis Iron Mountain & Southern Railway Co.), r 840 S. 8th Street (page 795)
1892 directory, Denver, CO: J W Lyall, oper W U Tel Co, r The Gilsey (a hotel: listed on p.1191: sw corner of Stout & 18th St, F S McLene, proprietor) (page 654)
1893 directory, Denver, CO: [Fold3] Joseph W. Lyall, opr W. U. Tel Co, r 2212 California Street (page 690)
1894: Not listed in Denver, CO.
1897 directory, Oakland, CA: Jos W, opr S P Co., r 276 11th Street (page 310)
1899 directory, Oakland, CA: Jos A [sic], opr S P Co., r 2321 Tel Av.(page 277)
1899 directory, Los Angeles, CA: J W Lyall, 1201 W. Adams (page 1153)
1900 directory, Los Angeles, CA: Joseph W., r 1027 Temple (page 490) no occupation listed.
1901 directory, Los Angeles, CA: Joseph W., tel opr for Sante Fe Route, bds 1027 Temple (no mention of wife) (page 555)

1904 directory, Los Angeles, CA: Joseph W., tel opr Santa Fe. bds 1027 Temple Street (page 812)
1904 directory, Los Angeles, CA: Imogene L., stenogr. bds 1027 Temple Street (page 812)
(Imogene, his step-daughter)
1907 directory, Los Angeles, CA: Joseph W., tel opr Santa Fe. h 912 Hinton Av. (page 918)
1907 directory, Los Angeles, CA: Imogene L., steno. h 912 Hinton Av. (page 918)

1908 directory, Los Angeles, CA: Joseph W., Supt. Tel Sch. h 912 Hinton Av. (page 894)
1910 directory, Los Angeles, CA: Joseph W. r 912 Hinton Av. (page 912) [no occupation listed]
1912 directory, Los Angeles, CA: Joseph W., tel opr, h 912 Hinton Av. (page 972)
1913 directory, Los Angeles, CA: Joseph W. Superintendent Santa Fe Telegraph Sch, 912 Hinton AV. (page 1195)
> separate entry for Rose I. Lyall but at same address as Joseph.
1915 directory, Los Angeles, CA: Joseph W. Lyall, instructor Santa Fe Telegraph Sch, r 916 W. 10th Street (page 1321)
> separate entry for Rose I Mrs. at 912 Hinton av.
1917 directory, Los Angeles, CA: Jos W tchr Santa Fe Telegraph Sch h 834 Golden av (page 1303)
> separate entry for Rose I Mrs. at 912 Hinton av.
1918 directory, Los Angeles, CA: Joseph W., tel opr, h 834 Golden av (page 1271)
1920 directory, Los Angeles, CA: Jos W instructor Santa Fe Telegraph Sch, h 1317 1/2 Arapahoe Street. (page 1438)
1921 directory, Los Angeles, CA: Jos W instructor Santa Fe Telegraph Sch, h 1317 1/2 Arapahoe Street. (page 1658)
1921 directory, Los Angeles, CA: Rose I. Lyall, h 912 Beaudry Av.. (page 1658)
1922 directory, Los Angeles, CA: Jos W instructor Santa Fe Telegraph Sch, h 1317 1/2 Arapahoe Street. (page 1751)
1923 directory, Los Angeles, CA: Jos W instructor Santa Fe Telegraph Sch, r 1546a 3d Av. (page 1983)
1924 directory, Los Angeles, CA: both Ancestry & Fold3 are missing the relevant pages.
1925 directory, Los Angeles, CA: missing all pages after LANGE (Fold3 (library edition) stops at year 1924).
1926 directory, Los Angeles, CA: missing all pages before MOODY.
1927 directory, Los Angeles, CA: missing all pages after BRUNO.
1928 directory, Los Angeles, CA: missing all pages before PADDAOK.
1929 directory, Los Angeles, CA: missing all pages after EITAL.
Even though the census places Joseph & Alberta in Oakland by 1930, the 1935 directory is the first edition to list them.
1935 directory, Oakland, CA: Joseph & Alberta, h 1515 Alice Street (page 532). no occupation listed.
1937 directory, Oakland, CA: Joseph & Alberta at 1461 Alice Street (page 535).
> Ancestry error: index gives home address as 461 Alice
1938 directory, Oakland, CA: Joseph W. & Alberta, h 1505 Jackson Street (page 572). no occupation listed.
> Ancestry error: index gives home address as 605 Jackson
1939 directory, Oakland, CA: Joseph W & Alberta at 1511 Jackson Street (page 558, image 286).
> Ancestry error: index gives home address as Oil Jackson
1940 directory, Oakland, CA: no Joseph or Alberta listed.